while doing work for a client in her office recently, we got into a light discussion about religion.
she knew i was one of jehovahs witnesses as our business relationship started while i was still a loyal and believing jw.
anyway, i said something that she knew didnt quite fit and she said ... i thought you were one of jehovahs witnesses ... i shared my story ... she felt comfortable to confide in me a story as to why, even though she has had dealings with jehovahs witnesses who she thinks are good people, she would never even consider listening to them about their religion.. i asked her if she would write it down for me so that i could share ... she agreed.. this is her experience.. .
While you were in law school, you were filing motions and making appearances in court to argue them? Are bar licenses optional to the practice of law in your state?
One doesn't need a license to appear on his or her own behalf, even in California where you reside. It's called, pro se.
As an attorney, you should have been able to figure that one out. Geez...who in the h*ll would I have been respresenting except myself???
while doing work for a client in her office recently, we got into a light discussion about religion.
she knew i was one of jehovahs witnesses as our business relationship started while i was still a loyal and believing jw.
anyway, i said something that she knew didnt quite fit and she said ... i thought you were one of jehovahs witnesses ... i shared my story ... she felt comfortable to confide in me a story as to why, even though she has had dealings with jehovahs witnesses who she thinks are good people, she would never even consider listening to them about their religion.. i asked her if she would write it down for me so that i could share ... she agreed.. this is her experience.. .
Surely the hospital and doctors would need something more than the child's say-so to refuse treatment to protect them?
Yes, more is needed. The parents/guardians and the child's decision must be in agreement, i.e., all parties must refuse blood.
Lainie Freedman, who was at this conference, wrote an interesting paper regarinding pediatric physicians and the circumstances under which they choose to 'respect' a minor's choice. She too references this case.
[1] Lainie Friedman Ross, Against The Tide: Arguments Against Respecting A Minor’s Refusal Of Efficacious Life-Saving Treatment, 18 Cambridge Quarterly of Healthcare Ethics 302 (2009).
while doing work for a client in her office recently, we got into a light discussion about religion.
she knew i was one of jehovahs witnesses as our business relationship started while i was still a loyal and believing jw.
anyway, i said something that she knew didnt quite fit and she said ... i thought you were one of jehovahs witnesses ... i shared my story ... she felt comfortable to confide in me a story as to why, even though she has had dealings with jehovahs witnesses who she thinks are good people, she would never even consider listening to them about their religion.. i asked her if she would write it down for me so that i could share ... she agreed.. this is her experience.. .
The hospital's lawyers probably advised elevating the case to a judge to get an official ruling,
Adam...again you are incorrect. This will be my last post on this thread regarding the case.
I can speak with some authority regarding this case because I AM the J.D. in the video.
I performed a legal externship at the hospital under discussion, in the legal department under discussion, with the chief counsel and assistant counsel under discussion, and I know exactly what they thought, what they did, and why they did it.
While in law school, I found a rarely used Washington Supreme Court decision that I used to support a motion I filed with the court to grant me full access to this case's sealed court records. I appeared before the very same judge who originally ruled in the case. He granted my motion; hence, I have all the supporting documentation and the oral testimony from both court hearings. Therefore, I know who said what, when they said it, and to whom they said it.
We each only had a short amount of time to speak, so by necessity, many important facts were left out of the presentation.
You may be a retired physician, but unless you are a retired pediatric physician, you are not fully aware of the nuances of minors, informed consent (or assent with minors), and the mature minor doctrine. That why there are unique pediatric bioethics conferences.
This case simply NEVER would have seen the light of day but for the anxious administrator. The physicians, social worker, AND legal department were united in the conclusion that medical staff have the authority to determine him a mature minor, respect his decision, and let him die, WITHOUT A COURT ORDER OR ANY FORM OF JUDICIAL REVIEW.
This hospital is a premier children's hospital, with some of the finest doctors in the nation, and if THIS hospital and its staff think they have that authority, then there is a good chance that OTHER pediatric hospitals/providers think similarly. If that is true, the chilling reality is that we don't really know how often JW minors die.
BTW, twice you felt the need to note that I said you were "totally" wrong. You aren't used to people telling you that, are you? It's a good thing you are retired.
while doing work for a client in her office recently, we got into a light discussion about religion.
she knew i was one of jehovahs witnesses as our business relationship started while i was still a loyal and believing jw.
anyway, i said something that she knew didnt quite fit and she said ... i thought you were one of jehovahs witnesses ... i shared my story ... she felt comfortable to confide in me a story as to why, even though she has had dealings with jehovahs witnesses who she thinks are good people, she would never even consider listening to them about their religion.. i asked her if she would write it down for me so that i could share ... she agreed.. this is her experience.. .
In most cases, a judge has to be convinced (or at the very least, a hospital panel of bioethicists are consulted, and are generally NOT the same people involved in providing care to the patient, precisely to avoid any appearance of impropriety or conflict of interest).
I didn't miss the above sentence Adamah; I just didn't think it was especially relevant.
Actually, one of the disturbing issues associated with this case is that the treating physician's decision to respect the minor's decision would never have been reviewed under normal circumstances.
The treating physician's anomalous decision was discovered AFTER a supervisor from Child Protective Services (an arm of the State) checked on his welfare after being tipped off by someone in the hospital, and they escalated the situation to a County judge, who ruled that 'comfort (palliative) care' should proceed (i.e. the judge didn't force a transfusion).
The above is totally incorrect.
The hospital itself ended up making the CPS referral two days before the young man died. Throughout the case, the hospital's legal department supported the doctor's decision, and while a 'concerned citizen' (likely the minor's teacher) reported the case to Child Protective Services (CPS), CPS sat on the case for a while (I believe several weeks) because no one there was especially concerned. It seems the hospital worker report suffered the same fate.
The only reason the case ever went before a judge is that the hospital administrator wanted more legal protection. In fact, the hospital social worker actually orally testified that he never would have made the CPS referral absent being ordered to by the administrator, and the judge noted that the only reason he was hearing the case was to provide the hospital legal protection.
The boy was in dependent care after all, and so his natural parents conceivably could have brought a claim against the hospital. However, if the boy and his natural parents' decisions had been united, the administrator would not really have had to worry about a claim, so s/he likely would not have asked the hospital social worker to make the CPS referral.
And if that had been the case, no one would have ever known about this highly controversial case. Therefore, I don't know that anyone case assert what happens in most cases because we would never hear about the cases where no outside referral is made. Though I do hope you are right, and that most cases are reviewed.
while doing work for a client in her office recently, we got into a light discussion about religion.
she knew i was one of jehovahs witnesses as our business relationship started while i was still a loyal and believing jw.
anyway, i said something that she knew didnt quite fit and she said ... i thought you were one of jehovahs witnesses ... i shared my story ... she felt comfortable to confide in me a story as to why, even though she has had dealings with jehovahs witnesses who she thinks are good people, she would never even consider listening to them about their religion.. i asked her if she would write it down for me so that i could share ... she agreed.. this is her experience.. .
Marvin said- In my years I’ve seen plenty of sick children coaxed and coached by parents and congregation elders into being little “mature minors” in order to convince medical staff not to administer blood product forbidden by Watchtower teaching. It’s such a tragedy, not to mention a travesty.
By suggesting these children were trying to convince medical staff not to administer blood product, you implied it was the medical staff's decision, if only the treating doctors could be convinced that they were mature. Wrong. In most cases, it's not up to the treating doctors to decide.
I must disagree Adamah. If a pediatric provider determines that a minor is a "mature minor," s/he can make the decision to 'respect' the child's decision making by not seeking a court order.
As BOTR noted, I posted regarding just such a controversial JW case, a case that was discussed as a recent pediatric bioethics conference.
There are cases that test our moral values, raising complicated ethical issues in our day-to-day care of individual patients. Frequently, as they search for the proper course of action, clinicians and families seek advice from ethics committees or consultants. Yet, even when these situations are resolved, they may leave us feeling unsettled and uncertain. Did we do the right thing? Did we act in the best interests of all concerned? Could we have done more?
The conference was webcast, and the presentation is available here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Tg5ZzzTMLE&feature=youtu.be
An Adolescent with Leukemia Refuses a Blood Transfusion
David Woodrum, MD (Bio, Presentation)
D. Micah Hester, PhD (Bio, Presentation)
Marlena Dietzway, JD (Bio, Presentation)
For any members that are interested in pediatric bioethics in general, the whole conference is available here: http://www.seattlechildrens.org/research/initiatives/bioethics/events/pediatric-bioethics-conference/2013-pediatric-bioethics-conference/
believers in the koran/islam, that's all of them, not just so called extremists, believe that i, as an unbeliever, will be the fuel for the fires of hell.
that's nice.. they, along with all bible believers, worship a god who is, according to his written publications, a right bastard.
i despise their god/s.. i find that i do not respect their beliefs.. i cannot help but think that when all the philosophical talking of this, that and the other is done, they're just idiots.. i, on my down days, find that i do not respect them as human beings.
Believers in the Koran/Islam, that's all of them, not just so called extremists, believe that I, as an unbeliever, will be the fuel for the fires of hell. That's nice.
Actually, no, all Muslims do NOT believe as you have stated above. E.g., http://www.gulenmovement.us/fethullah-gulens-sufi-solution-to-tolerance-and-interfaith-dialogue.html
Since your premise is incorrect, everything--incuding your prejudices--that flows from it is flawed.
How do I overcome this?
Education...from non-prejudiced sources.
robert aldana sr. | visit guest book.
aldana, sr., robert .
born in pocatello, id on june 29, 1941 and died on june 30, 2010 in st. paul, mn.
Bumping. Just wondering if any of the newbies know him.
can i ask for your opinion?
i have been disfellowshipped and divorced for a few years.
my ex-wife and my daughter have cut off all contact from me.
Just to make sure everyone is on the same page...alimony (maintenance) and child support are different from each other. He is asking regarding alimony, not child support.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/alimony
As far as child support, he has posted the following: "My daughter is now grown up and married." Hence, he isn't paying child support.
can i ask for your opinion?
i have been disfellowshipped and divorced for a few years.
my ex-wife and my daughter have cut off all contact from me.
The reason I posted was to get your opinions on how morally acceptable (and Christian) it was for someone to accept money while claiming to have nothing to do with the payer.
I think the morality issue is precisely what you are missing.
Judges rarely award alimony; this holds true for the U.S. and Canada. If a judge chooses to award alimony, it usually means that the judge has determined that there is not enough marital property to award to the wife to compensate her for contributions to the marriage. If there were enough marital property, the judge would have likely just awarded her that, and you two could be done with each other. Therefore, she is recieving what a judge felt she was economically due, again, for her contributions during the marriage.
Since she is simply collecting on her prior contributions made during the marriage, she is under no moral obligation to make further contributions by having any dealings with you now that the marriage is defunct.
the jws stopped by my house a couple weeks ago on a saturday morning.
i knew that with others most likely waiting for them out in the car they probably did not then have much time to engage in any serious conversation.
so i let them talk while i feigned interest in what they had to say.
marked
